Author Topic: Constitutional Whatzzits?  (Read 5567 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline RottingCorpse

  • Old Timer
  • You're a kitty!
  • ***
  • Posts: 24065
  • We got this by the ass!
    • http://www.lonniemartin.com
Constitutional Whatzzits?
« on: August 24, 2005, 10:06:48 AM »
I heard on NPR that the Iraqi's are considering a "federalist" government. Since this isn't the 1700's, I 'm not too sure what exactly a federalist government is, or how it differs from the type of representative democracy the U.S. has in place.

Does anyone else?

Offline nacho

  • Hallowed are the Ori.
  • Walter The Farting Dog
  • You're a kitty!
  • *****
  • Posts: I am a geek!!
    • GS
Constitutional Whatzzits?
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2005, 10:29:43 AM »
You're living in a federalist republic, RC.

We are a representative democracy, composed of a federation of States.

Haven't you watched any Civil War movies, dude?  Those dirty Federals burned my farm!


edit:  Before anyone asks.  Confederate = allied where federated = surrendering individual authority to a central authority.  

Thus State's Rights versus a federal government.  

You may have also heard of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, no?  

Federal, federal, federal, federal.

edit2 -- the Federalists you're thinking of, RC, were a group who wanted to do away with the Articles of Confederation in favor of our current Constitution, and they won.  The pitch being that the States bow to a central authority (GEORGE BUSH!!) but also maintain checks and balances.  i.e. "Pluralism," both areas of government (federal and local) maintain some authority.  So, later on, the Federalist Party (somewhat different than the federalists of the Federalist Papers pre-Constitution) wanted a more centralized government, see.  Ironically, the Republican Party (no real relation) was opposed to central authority.

Offline nacho

  • Hallowed are the Ori.
  • Walter The Farting Dog
  • You're a kitty!
  • *****
  • Posts: I am a geek!!
    • GS
Constitutional Whatzzits?
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2005, 11:30:27 AM »
I can't stop!  I'm horrified that RC doesn't know this and now realize the problem with America.

So, your second lesson for today:  An Iraqi Federal Government.  It's a pathetic attempt to be like America, except there aren't any physical former colonies to unite under a dissected snake flag.  No, in this case, there are the various freak groups.  Sunni's, Shiites, Kurds, centaurs, sleestacks...

So in a federalist government, these groups will unite under a central authority (GEORGE BUSH!!!) and maintain their own authority in the same scenario we enjoy.  The individual groups have nominal power while a central authority (PEPSI-COLA!!!) handles all the nation building shit.  

This, of course, is what they've been talking about doing all along and NPR, as usual, is about three years behind and wildly uninformed.

Here's why the federal system has not worked for the last three years they've tried to put it in place:  

Quote
Shi'a 60%-65%, Sunni 32%-37%
Kurdish 15%-20%, Turkoman, Assyrian or other 5%


Each group hates the other.  You try to form a representative democracy.  Can you see the problem?  Right, the Shiites will always win.

By the way, Iraq is also an "Arab government." No matter what they do.  The country is 80% Arab. Al-quada is opposed to Arab governments just as strongly as they are to western governments.  This is the reason why they or folks inspired by them are active in iraq.  This is also the reason why you sometimes hear stories from the conservatives about how the Iraqi people are on our side.  They are, in the sense that the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

This is one of the big reasons why iraq won't settle down and why you keep hearing about foreign agitators.

Offline nacho

  • Hallowed are the Ori.
  • Walter The Farting Dog
  • You're a kitty!
  • *****
  • Posts: I am a geek!!
    • GS
Constitutional Whatzzits?
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2005, 11:44:53 AM »
PS -- the Arab Government factiod helps you to impress women at parties.  Al-Quada wouldn't be caught dead basing their operations within an Arab government.  At least, not officially.  As we all know, hitting Iraq had nothing to do with Al Quada.  If for any reason, the Arab factor alone is enough to prove this.  

However, Afghanistan is legit.  They're a scattered group of muslim tribes.  The sort who compose the foundation for Al Quada's ultimate dream -- re-establishing the Caliphate.

Al-Quada's mission statement is to topple the Arab governments, reform a Caliphate and, from there, march armies against us.  Current agitation within western countries is, most likely, conducted by fringe groups. With the exception of 9/11, which was meant to be a "wake-up call" and declaration of war, terrorist strikes within western countries in the last four years have been off of the official roadmap.  (Though they are welcome and praised, of course.)

Offline nacho

  • Hallowed are the Ori.
  • Walter The Farting Dog
  • You're a kitty!
  • *****
  • Posts: I am a geek!!
    • GS
Constitutional Whatzzits?
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2005, 12:02:10 PM »
Next -- if you're rebuilding an empire and trying to cure the "middle ages" period that Islam has drifted into, why would you announce yourself by attacking the giant?

Here you have Al-Quada and allied groups who, right now, are a bunch of yahoos.  Why fuck with us when their real goal is to knock out Iraq and Saudi Arabia and Syria and all these camel jockey governments that have become the dominant force in the Middle East?

The answer is easy -- who toppled the Arab government in Iraq?  And who, now, is attempting to unite the tribal groups and create a muslim nation that isn't really an "Arab force?"

That's right, we're fulfilling Al-Quada's roadmap.  Their real mission, right now, is not to topple us.  Their mission is to topple Iraq, Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia and whoever else.

They knew we'd hit Iraq.  They know we'll hit Iran and Syria.  They know Saudi Arabia can't breathe as long as they maintain an alliance with us, which they must do because they're weak.

At the end of the day, it's a disturbingly simple plan.  The headshop boys stay hidden while the wild and wooly 20 year old crazies keep us hopping and the hyper-defensive, American-hating Arab governments dare us to attack them.  The more agitation, the weaker the totalitarian governments become.  Maybe some will even fall without the US freaking out all over them.  After all, what you don't hear, is that terrorist actions also take place in these countries.  Buses and trains and shootings and bombs are going up all the time and the news thinks, har-har, Syria's dumberer, and doesn't give it coverage.  On occasion, you hear about it in Saudi Arabia, yes?  That gets covered because the media knows that the Saudi's are this far -- this far -- from crumbling like a house of cards.

Offline RottingCorpse

  • Old Timer
  • You're a kitty!
  • ***
  • Posts: 24065
  • We got this by the ass!
    • http://www.lonniemartin.com
Constitutional Whatzzits?
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2005, 03:16:26 PM »
It's the term "federalist" that threw me. Who the fuck uses that word anymore? And to further show my stupidity, I never really thought about teh word federal much. If someone said "federal," I thought "central government."

Re: Articles of Copnfederation . . . My understanding (from my friggin' high school civics course) is that the Artciles deemphasized a "federal" government allowing each state for the most part basic autonomy with a "federal" government in place in order to regulate trade between states, raise an army, and deal with foreign affairs.

When  NPR said "Federalist," I was under the impression that Iraq was trying to draft something closer to the Articles than the Constitution and thought that was just insane. If you have a bunch of groups who don't want to deal with each other, giving them reasons not to have to is moronic.

It really is scary how little the average American (myself included) deosn't get a lot of this shit.

Offline nacho

  • Hallowed are the Ori.
  • Walter The Farting Dog
  • You're a kitty!
  • *****
  • Posts: I am a geek!!
    • GS
Constitutional Whatzzits?
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2005, 03:30:56 PM »
Quote from: RottingCorpse


Re: Articles of Copnfederation . . . My understanding (from my friggin' high school civics course) is that the Artciles deemphasized a "federal" government allowing each state for the most part basic autonomy with a "federal" government in place in order to regulate trade between states, raise an army, and deal with foreign affairs.

When  NPR said "Federalist,"


You're right.  The Articles were, more or less, a treaty between the States to stick together against Britain and anyone else who came a-knockin'.  It soon became clear that you can't fight an empire with 13 little States and a citizen army.

The Constitution gave more power to the federal government to better do the things you mention.  

This is more a vocabulary issue.  Confederation and federation aren't really related.  The Allied powers in WWII (or our much loved Coalition of the Willing today) are a confederation of independent nations.  The Soviet Union was a federation of dependent nations.

Offline RottingCorpse

  • Old Timer
  • You're a kitty!
  • ***
  • Posts: 24065
  • We got this by the ass!
    • http://www.lonniemartin.com
Constitutional Whatzzits?
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2005, 06:02:28 PM »
So, do you think Al Queda (and exactly how the fuck are we spelling it this week?) really want to bring the "arab governments to their knees, turn them into strict Islamic law countries and then use thier armies (with tanks and jet fighters, and ships, and stuff) to trounce Russia, Europe and The States?

It sounds so Lex Luthor.

Offline nacho

  • Hallowed are the Ori.
  • Walter The Farting Dog
  • You're a kitty!
  • *****
  • Posts: I am a geek!!
    • GS
Constitutional Whatzzits?
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2005, 06:26:17 PM »
They could be lying, sure.  But if you want to believe that they have a purpose beyond fucking doodz up, then you have to believe in their supposed roadmap.

Historically speaking, there is a divide between the "strict Islamic law" stuff and the "Arab governments."  (Strict Islamic law is a western term, by the way, and somewhat misleading.)  

The caliphates were founded by the followers of Muhammad and finally collapsed when the Turks revolted in 1924 (though the long decay had begun in the era of colonialism).  

Historically, the caliphates -- which stretched from Persia to Spain -- were the Roman empire of Islam.  Muhammad's buddies set them up and they were each headed by a mini-emperor.  Or kind of like well-armed mini-popes, maybe.  

Arabs are, by some muslims, looked down upon.  There is a social/racial difference.  Think of the divisions we have -- black, white, Asian, hispanic.  Same sort of concept.

By "Arab governments" you could probably translate it to mean "minor isolationist, nationalistic nation-states."  Iraq was a closed fascist state.  Kings and fascist dictators would much rather rule in hell than serve in heaven, of course.

The plan to build an empire and meet us face to face on a battlefield is, yes, insane.  It's also insane to fly a plane into a tower.

Offline RottingCorpse

  • Old Timer
  • You're a kitty!
  • ***
  • Posts: 24065
  • We got this by the ass!
    • http://www.lonniemartin.com
Constitutional Whatzzits?
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2005, 06:36:36 PM »
If that is the grand plan, then yes, flying a plane into the World Trade Center (and the '93 trade center attack) were pretty stupid. Hitler was already cranking out tanks and planes by the hundreds, by the time folks started to get worried.

Still, Bin Laden IS (or was) a billionaire. I don't see whay he didn't set up a big war factory in Afghanistan after he and his buddies trounced the Russians in the eighties.
That's why terrorism seems so asinine to me. I can see wanting to fuck somebody up, but they literally don't have the manpower or ability to launch a full fledged battle campaign against Europe, much less teh U.S.

Sure, a dirty bomb would kill a bunch of people, but its certainly wouldn't topple the giant . . . would it?

Tyson

  • Guest
Constitutional Whatzzits?
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2005, 06:50:59 PM »
You saw what kind of pandemonium a few hijacked planes threw everyone in to. Wait'll they release dirty bombs on the 10 biggest cities.

Offline nacho

  • Hallowed are the Ori.
  • Walter The Farting Dog
  • You're a kitty!
  • *****
  • Posts: I am a geek!!
    • GS
Constitutional Whatzzits?
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2005, 06:52:24 PM »
You're right, it can't be done.  We, and our allies, are sitting on top of the world.  Between resource-loss, fascism and monarchies, massive brain-drains and post-colonial fuckups, the idea that one of those poor nations could put together a war machine is laughable.

They're helped by the fact that it's sort of in our blood to build armies which need to face you on a field, march into cannons and stick together. They're also aided because the bad guys look like the good guys.  Vietnam Trick #1.  So, instead of a German pillbox shooting at you, it's a kid in a market.  And you're in a group of guys who have been trained to take the pillbox.

As for toppling the giant, it's all about what you consider toppling to be.  A mass pullout from the Mideast and ditching Israel?  A limited pullout and allowing Afghanistan and Iraq to steer their own course?  

I consider toppling to mean the destruction of the US and Japanese troops marching down PA ave.  Or, uh, no, Soviet troops...wait...

That won't happen.  Even with a dirty bomb in Detroit.  Which might go unnoticed, actually.

Offline nacho

  • Hallowed are the Ori.
  • Walter The Farting Dog
  • You're a kitty!
  • *****
  • Posts: I am a geek!!
    • GS
Constitutional Whatzzits?
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2005, 06:57:42 PM »
Quote from: Tyson
You saw what kind of pandemonium a few hijacked planes threw everyone in to. Wait'll they release dirty bombs on the 10 biggest cities.


Less pandemonium than the Cuban Missile Crisis.  Did every family go out and buy a bunker?  No...they bought duct tape!  Come on.  9/11 was showy, but we've had larger reactionary freakouts than that.  

I'll pay your tuition if the terrorists manage to release 10 dirty bombs in 10 of our biggest cities.  Remember -- nothing has happened since 9/11.  Madrid remains to be confirmed, really confirmed, as a proper terrorist strike and London was some goober fringe group who were less capable with their explosives than the Weather Underground.

Offline RottingCorpse

  • Old Timer
  • You're a kitty!
  • ***
  • Posts: 24065
  • We got this by the ass!
    • http://www.lonniemartin.com
Constitutional Whatzzits?
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2005, 07:01:02 PM »
Yeah, the more I hear, the more the London bombers are kind of turning out to be Larry, Curly, Moe, and Shemp.

Tyson

  • Guest
Constitutional Whatzzits?
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2005, 07:13:08 PM »
Quote from: nacho
I'll pay your tuition if the terrorists manage to release 10 dirty bombs in 10 of our biggest cities.


No need, the state of California is already paying for me because I put on my Bambi eyes and pointed at my hearing aid.

I think of it as getting the $4,000 or so in taxes I paid in high school back.

Now Weather Underground - *they* werre fun!