Author Topic: 2012 Roundup  (Read 46058 times)

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Offline RottingCorpse

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Re: 2012 Roundup
« Reply #75 on: April 10, 2012, 05:00:55 PM »
One assumes that'll be the case, right? Romney is so old school rich white guy it's laughable.

Offline nacho

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Re: 2012 Roundup
« Reply #76 on: April 10, 2012, 05:29:19 PM »
If it's not the case, I'm going to go to France and work for Monkey.

Offline RottingCorpse

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Re: 2012 Roundup
« Reply #77 on: April 10, 2012, 05:57:23 PM »
I fear racist America.

Offline Reginald McGraw

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Re: 2012 Roundup
« Reply #78 on: April 10, 2012, 11:53:33 PM »
I'm mildly interested to see if Romney can mount anything at all.

Offline nacho

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Re: 2012 Roundup
« Reply #79 on: April 11, 2012, 10:22:01 AM »
I'm mildly interested to see if Romney can mount anything at all.

Besides multiple teenage wives at his heavily armed Mexican compound full of child rapists?

Offline RottingCorpse

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Re: 2012 Roundup
« Reply #80 on: April 11, 2012, 12:11:12 PM »
One has to worry about the future of the GOP. The field of candidates was so sub-par. I can only assume that any one with any sense is simply holding out for 2016. God help us if this is truly the best they have.

I think I've mentioned this before, but I know a lot of young republicans straight out of college and they don't seem nearly as crazy. Pretty moderate really, and even liberal on social issues. Hopefully, someone can come along and infuse the party.

While I abhor the two-party system, I fear a system in which one party dominates... though maybe that's just a further sign of the dying republic/empire.

Offline nacho

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Re: 2012 Roundup
« Reply #81 on: April 11, 2012, 12:51:25 PM »
Well, back to Rome. The even split between two parties is what crippled the Republic. There never was a one-party takeover like a modern dictatorship. The empire was founded as a cult of personality by individuals who, usually, stood outside of political parties...and even politics in general.

One party dominating isn't so unheard of, and has happened a few times in our own past. What we're seeing here is the classic death of a party. Usually, another will rise up to take its place... Or it'll be reformed. There are four instances in the 19th century where we pretty much see a single-party system for an election or two while one party implodes. The implosion is often because of extreme radicalization over whatever the issue is.

So what's happening now is as American as apple pie. The Republicans themselves are an upstart moderate party that was born out of the radicalization of the Whigs. The Democrats are an offshoot party that polarized around Jeffersonian politics.

The GOP and the Democrats are our longest lasting parties, but that's because they both cut their teeth on the slavery and Civil War issues. Something that we're still sort of recovering from, politically and geographically speaking. It's long overdue for one of the parties to collapse. This is why, for the large part, the Democrats have chosen such a bland centrist path. It's a survival strategy to prolong their existence.

What actually happens to political parties is what we're witnessing in the GOP now -- fragmentation, polarization, and a general loss of any sense of center. Normally, the party then fades away and is replaced.

Political types have been predicting the fall of the GOP since the 30's... And, if you weigh their candidates, you sort of see the shift in focus post-1936. The Republicans who have made the grade post-FDR era are all "raised on a shield," to keep the Roman parlance. Ike, Nixon, Reagan, Bush II (with Ford and Bush I riding coattails). Electing personalities and not fixers/doers (like LBJ, Carter, Clinton, and Obama) is another classic sign of a crippled party.

Now, the lines do blur. Nixon and Reagan billed themselves as fixers, and Clinton and Obama are certainly personalities. But, once in office, the differences were clear.

Offline nacho

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Re: 2012 Roundup
« Reply #82 on: April 11, 2012, 12:52:44 PM »
Also, can you imagine a multi-party system in the US? It would probably be the end of the US as we know it. We'd be a new CSA within a decade.

So if you abhor the two-party system, and fear a one party system, what's the viable alternative?

Offline RottingCorpse

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Re: 2012 Roundup
« Reply #83 on: April 11, 2012, 02:06:05 PM »
I tolerate the two-party system, but I don't like it. I'm not sure what the viable alternative is. You can see the struggle of parliaments with  a system of four or five parties. (The "redistricting" of power in Iraq after the fall of Saddam comes to mind.) Any kind of consolidation attempt on an issue is a debacle filled with chaos and corruption.

Yet as you say, the GOP has become taken over by "radical" interests. And by radical, I mean interests that don't seem to be in line with the mainstream. The irony of course, is that the GOP screams at anyone who will listen about Obama's "radical' plan for the U.S.  However, Obama (if you'll pardon the pun) is as vanilla as they come, mostly because of the shit situation he inherited but also because he's an idealist.

One wonders about the population and culture we live in though. If Obama loses, it'll be an ominous sign of course, but even more disturbing is the possibility of Obama barely squeaking out a victory over a candidate as bland and out of touch as Romney. That somehow is more frightening in it's implication.

My ultimate point is that the current political situation in America doesn't actually give one any reassurance that the republic is healthy.

I've mentioned the lack of a 21st century common culture in regards to art and literature, but I think it's also seeped into our politics. I read a columnist recently who said that WWII (or World War Eleven, if you prefer) was the unifying experience for politicians for the better part of a quarter century. No matter the political differences, there was a willingness to come together for the good of the republic because of the shared experience of WWII. Everything is fractured now. Everybody has niche special interests they stand for rather than the good of the republic/empire.

So, is Obama Julius Caesar? Does that make Sarah Palin/Romney/Whatever GOPer the conservatives rally around Octavian/Augustus? The metaphor doesn't quite work, eh?

I think we've just now entered the full on "imperial" plateau of America's history. Everything happens at light speed these days, so I doubt the empire will last a hundred years. It started with Reagan, began it's true ascent with Clinton, and is topping out as we speak. What's weird is that I can't even begin to predict what follows. China can't sustain itself at it's current rate, so it's unlikely that some great Chinese empire rises. It's also doubtful that with our military strength, we get relegated to the status Russia is now, all bravado with only history and thirty year old technology to back it up.

America has always had an extremist bent, so the great fear is that as we loose influence and fracture domestically we coalesce around some radical idea of power. To me, that's the what the tea party represents; an isolationist, racist backwards view of what "American Power" is.

Anyway, it'll be interesting to see how 2012 plays out.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 02:18:48 PM by RottingCorpse »

Offline nacho

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Re: 2012 Roundup
« Reply #84 on: April 11, 2012, 02:25:38 PM »
Yeah, certainly the Caesar/Augustus metaphor does not work. I still think we're a far cry from that.

Also on the military -- we're not 30 years out of date. We are in tactics, maybe, but we're cranking out new equipment and technology (at our personal expense, and for no clear reason) like maniacs. The plans for the new aircraft carriers are ridiculous (considering that the whole concept of aircraft carriers is pretty much 50 years outdated and we only really need two or three to get the point across).

So our technology is fine. But, then again, that's because we sacrifice all social reforms.

My prediction is that we easily have another generation of blandness and pointlessness ahead of us. Come the middle of the century, the fault lines will show... But we'll be old and in the way at that point.

The rot will come from inside -- a lack of social consciousnesses (part of that being your culture problem) and education will produce a broken generation, which will in turn produce another broken generation.

To once again draw Roman parallels, we've almost skipped the imperial phase and gone right for the barbarian hegemony phase. Where they dealt with the need to absorb mass migrations that watered down the values and cohesiveness of the nation, we've simply embraced our inherent hillbillyness and given up trying to care. We've been taught to enjoy apathy. Part of it is the government fearing us post 60's "revolution" and inspiring the apathy, part of it is uber-capitalism stealing our social support structure, part of it is the continued promise of a car in every garage, part of it is the insanely out of control corporatism allowed to run roughshod over our morals, and part of it is total media saturation.

Which is the real problem. There's no single place to lay the blame. Nor is there a clear path to revolt against all that.   

Offline RottingCorpse

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Re: 2012 Roundup
« Reply #85 on: April 11, 2012, 02:28:58 PM »

Also on the military -- we're not 30 years out of date. We are in tactics, maybe, but we're cranking out new equipment and technology (at our personal expense, and for no clear reason) like maniacs. The plans for the new aircraft carriers are ridiculous (considering that the whole concept of aircraft carriers is pretty much 50 years outdated and we only really need two or three to get the point across).


I was saying Russia is all bravado with history and old tech, not the U.S.

Offline monkey!

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Re: 2012 Roundup
« Reply #86 on: April 11, 2012, 02:35:17 PM »
The problem with two party systems is that eventually both sides will begin to gravitate towards extremes in bids to out-do the other.

Even with multi-party systems, fear-driven political opportunism will gravitate votes towards the extremes. The politicians are a smoke screen, man.
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Offline nacho

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Re: 2012 Roundup
« Reply #87 on: April 11, 2012, 02:41:53 PM »

Also on the military -- we're not 30 years out of date. We are in tactics, maybe, but we're cranking out new equipment and technology (at our personal expense, and for no clear reason) like maniacs. The plans for the new aircraft carriers are ridiculous (considering that the whole concept of aircraft carriers is pretty much 50 years outdated and we only really need two or three to get the point across).


I was saying Russia is all bravado with history and old tech, not the U.S.

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« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 02:43:27 PM by nacho »

Offline Reginald McGraw

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Re: 2012 Roundup
« Reply #88 on: April 15, 2012, 10:59:54 AM »
Wow, lots going on here these past few days!

I agree with a lot of what you guys have said. I will say this though, I don't see our 2-party system as leading to extremism. Maybe that's the rhetoric during an election cycle, but once folks get elected and head off to DC it's all lobbyists and bribes and everyone comes back to the center.

Offline RottingCorpse

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Re: 2012 Roundup
« Reply #89 on: August 11, 2012, 12:44:06 PM »
I think it's awesome that in an election year, this thread hasn't been updated in four months. Kind of speaks volumes, eh?

Anyway, Romney makes his veep pick. Paul Ryan of Wisconson. Right as rain, one might say.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Ryan