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Offline Nubbins

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White House: NO COMMENT!
« Reply #30 on: July 12, 2005, 06:27:23 PM »
I'm sorry... I got the series of events wrong... here's what actually happened according to *ahem* FOXNEWS.COM *ahem*.

Opponents Urge Action on Rove

WASHINGTON — Democrats, some White House reporters and assorted opponents of President Bush are demanding the ouster of Deputy Chief of Staff Karl Rove (search) after the revelation that Rove discussed a CIA employee with a member of the press.

Denying that Rove has become a liability to Bush without actually speaking to the facts of the case, White House spokesman Scott McClellan (search) responded to reporters' questions Tuesday by saying Rove retains the confidence of the president.

"We're continuing to move forward in our agenda ... everybody who is working here is helping us to advance the agenda and that includes Karl, who is helping us in a very big way," McClellan said.

McClellan made his comments after being skewered by the White House Press Corp, with reporter after reporter trying to get him to say whether he was wrong when he declared a year-and-a-half ago that Rove had nothing to do with the leak.

"You're asking questions that are related to news reports about an ongoing continuing investigation and you have my response to that," McClellan said. "It's not the appropriate time to talk about those conversations when the investigation is continuing."

Bush, at an Oval Office photo opportunity Tuesday, was asked directly whether he would fire Rove — in keeping with his pledge in June 2004 to dismiss any leakers in the case. The president did not respond.

Rove is on the hot seat after his lawyer, Robert Luskin, confirmed over the weekend that in July 2003 Rove spoke to Time magazine's Matt Cooper (search) about a trip former Ambassador Joe Wilson (search) took to the African nation of Niger. During his visit, Wilson investigated claims that Iraq was trying to buy yellowcake uranium, used for making nuclear weapons, from Niger. Wilson returned without such evidence, and subsequently wrote an op-ed in The New York Times criticizing the administration for manipulating intelligence to justify an invasion of Iraq.

Wilson claimed that his trip was authorized by Vice President Dick Cheney and then-CIA Director George Tenet.

According to Luskin, Rove told Cooper that Cheney and Tenet were not involved in planning Wilson's trip but that Wilson's wife, Valerie Plame (search), "apparently works" at the CIA and had authorized her husband's trip to Africa, according to a July 11, 2003, e-mail by Cooper obtained by Newsweek magazine.

The e-mail is now in the hands of federal prosecutors who are hunting down the leakers who revealed Plame's name to the news media.

Rove's lawyer insists Rove did not know or disclose Plame's name at the time that she worked undercover. Such a disclosure is illegal.

"A fair-minded reading of Cooper's e-mail is that Rove was trying to discourage Time magazine from circulating false allegations about Cheney, not trying to encourage them by saying anything about Wilson or his wife." Luskin said.

Did a Crime Occur?

Under certain circumstances, the exposure of a covert government agent would violate the Intelligence Identities Protection Act (search), carrying a maximum sentence of 10 years.

Robert Novak was the first columnist to reveal Plame's name in print. However, Novak did not out Plame as a "covert" agent but as a CIA "operative." According to a 2004 Vanity Fair article that profiled Wilson and Plame, Novak later said that nobody in the Bush administration "called me to leak this" and that "according to a confidential source at the C.I.A., Mrs. Wilson was an analyst, not a spy, not a covert operative, and not in charge of undercover operatives."

CIA sources say Plame was undercover as defined by the IIPA, though some others in the intelligence community have questioned how she could have fallen under the legal definition of "undercover officer" since she was on desk duty at CIA headquarters in Langley, Va., for such a long period of time, qualifying her as having "non-official cover" status.

It's not clear whether Rove knew whether Plame was undercover and deliberately revealed it, which would rise to the level of a crime. Regardless, some within the intelligence community say they believe some of Plame's contacts have been permanently compromised and may have been exposed to grave danger as a result of her name being released.

Former Justice Department attorney Lee Casey says Plame was not a covert agent and therefore, no crime was committed.

"The fact is, that this prosecution was started during the campaign, it is an artifact of the campaign and frankly, it ought to be ended," Casey told FOX News, adding that the state of mind of the so-called "leaker" must be known in order to charge one with a crime. "You [as a leaker] have to know, based on classified information, that the individual's identity is classified and the United States is taking affirmative measures to keep that secret. Working at Langley doesn't pass that case."

Jan Baran, former counsel to the Republican National Committee and former President Bush's 1988 presidential campaign, pointed out that a crime involves naming Plame, which Rove apparently did not do.

"I don't think [the public was] misled and ultimately, when all the facts are out, we're going to see that no one acted improperly," Baran said.

Former White House counsel Jack Quinn told FOX News that two issues surround Rove's discussing Plame to a reporter: one, whether Rove actually committed a crime, and two, whether the White House misled the American public about Rove's role even though a crime may not have been committed.

"It would be unfair to conclude that any crime has been committed — that's something that would be left to prosecutors," said Quinn, who worked in the Clinton administration.

But Quinn did note that Bush said he would deal with anyone involved in the matter, not necessarily just the leaker.

"That's quite a broader statement and I think right now Mr. Rove's credibility, Mr. McClellan's credibility ... until their credibility is sorted out, the president's credibility is really cast in their shadow," he said.

Quinn argued that Republicans would be screaming for hearings on the issue if the political roles were reversed and a Democrat lived in the White House.

"It's ridiculous to assert that if the shoe were on the other foot, the Republican majority wouldn't be investigating this thoroughly," he said.

When the leak investigation began, McClellan publicly denied allegations of Rove's involvement.

"I've said that it's not true and I have spoken with Karl Rove," McClellan said.

Early in the probe, President Bush said those responsible would be held accountable.

"If there is a leak out of my administration, I want to know who it is and if the person has violated the law, the person will be taken care of," Bush said in September 2003.

Dems: Rove Should Go

Bush did not use the word "fired" to describe the fate of the leaker, but some Democrats seem to expect that response.

“You have previously promised to fire anyone found to be leaking Valerie Plame’s identity, a standard of conduct I strongly admire. However, just yesterday Press Secretary McClellan refused to reiterate your standard of conduct. Standards of conduct mean little unless they are applied across the board and without prejudice," Sen. Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., wrote in a letter to Bush that was released Tuesday.

Former Democratic presidential candidate Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts said Tuesday that "Karl Rove ought to be fired." Joining Kerry on Capitol Hill was Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, D-N.Y., a possible 2008 presidential contender, who indicated her agreement with Kerry's view.

"I'm nodding," she told reporters.

"If you believe Karl Rove wasn't involved in the beginning of this ... in getting a character assassination on Joe Wilson, then the tooth fairy will come tomorrow if you put a tooth under your pillow," said Democratic strategist Bob Beckel.

Former California congressman Vic Fazio noted that Rove is well-known as the Bush administration's enforcer and the mind behind many moves made by the White House.

"It is obvious that there are a lot of people who want the president to keep his word and to fire anyone who is involved in leaking this information," Fazio said.

RNC Chairman Ken Mehlman on Tuesday blasted Democrats for "taking their political cues from the far-left, MoveOn wing of the party."

"The bottom line is Karl Rove was discouraging a reporter from writing a false story based on a false premise and the Democrats are engaging in blatant partisan political attacks," Mehlman said in a statement.

Brad Blakeman, former deputy assistant to the president, said Rove did nothing different than any other official in any administration.

"Karl Rove did not leak. Karl Rove provided information … it was background information, it was off-the-record ... it happens every day … it was perfectly proper," Blakeman told FOX News.

FOXNews.com's Liza Porteus and The Associated Press contributed to this report.
8=o tation

yotoc

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« Reply #31 on: July 12, 2005, 09:49:48 PM »
Seriously Nubs.  Your argument is weak.  Oh, it's fox news, it must be a lie.  I understand you all have this eternal hard-on for the day our lord and savior Bill Clinton rises up and throw down Satan (lolBushlol) and regains his throne.  I just can't understand this blatent fanboyism for anything bad about the evil republicans.  Should I start posting about the millions of things that the democrats do and say to show how they are the party of the elite stepping on the backs of the poor on their way to the top?  I get just as much news from cnn and npr as I do fox and I am smart enough to be able to separate the bullshit from the facts.  Maybe I'm the only one.

Tyson

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« Reply #32 on: July 12, 2005, 10:09:07 PM »
Oddly enough, I just got "Outfoxed" today from Netflix. I hope its good.

I think Nubbins point is that the Fox news article is so blatantly biased. Read it and watch the language. Something like this:

Quote
McClellan made his comments after being skewered by the White House Press Corp, with reporter after reporter trying to get him to say whether he was wrong when he declared a year-and-a-half ago that Rove had nothing to do with the leak.


Skewered? Ha! Poor widdle McClellan! They fail to mention that McClellan is now clamming up even though he gave plenty of "details" of everything before the Rove connection was apparent. He says that they don't discuss details when there's an investigation going on. But he already did. That makes it obvious that it's not White House policy - someone told him to keep mum.

Bush couldn't even offer a statement of faith in Rove. Not even, "I fully trust Karl Rove and believe he has nothing to do with this." He literally DID NOT REPLY. A blank stare. Awkward silence. "Next question." That, to me, means something is smelly.

I don't care if they're Republican or Democratic. I like seeing politicians fry. I had fun watching Davis go down in flames. Oh that was fun! ENRON! DAVIS! *flames*

Tyson

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« Reply #33 on: July 12, 2005, 10:30:36 PM »
Oh! This is fun.

A clip of O'Reilly saying "in the past six years, I've said 'shut up' ONCE." followed by like 20 clips of him getting pissed off and telling people to shut up and telling the producers to cut mics and lights etc etc. Then a ton of clips of all the other shows that do that all the time.

When I listened to Rush Limbaugh last summer (washing cars in the most Republican county in California), it was nothing but him yelling and then, when people who disagreed with him called in, cutting them off. See? A Republican tradition!

What a fag.

Tyson

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« Reply #34 on: July 12, 2005, 10:38:54 PM »
Want to put your personal opinion in to a news broadcast? Say "Some people say". Brilliant!

The exact opposite of what journalists are supposed to do. Journalists are supposed to source their information to give it credibility.

"The CEO of X says..."
"Bob, the leader of the Institute for Butt Sex says..."

Some people? People say anything!

"Some people say cutting off your own limbs is fun!"
etc.

Oh they're clever.

yotoc

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« Reply #35 on: July 12, 2005, 10:39:06 PM »
Quote from: Tyson
Oh! This is fun.

A clip of O'Reilly saying "in the past six years, I've said 'shut up' ONCE." followed by like 20 clips of him getting pissed off and telling people to shut up and telling the producers to cut mics and lights etc etc. Then a ton of clips of all the other shows that do that all the time.

When I listened to Rush Limbaugh last summer (washing cars in the most Republican county in California), it was nothing but him yelling and then, when people who disagreed with him called in, cutting them off. See? A Republican tradition!

What a fag.


Oh come on, the democrat talk shows do that too.  Oh wait, they've all been cancelled.

Tyson

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« Reply #36 on: July 12, 2005, 10:52:33 PM »
Quote from: yotoc
Oh wait, they've all been cancelled.


It's that crazy liberal media we've been enslaved under! Wait...

Liberal shows are flipping popular. But TV channels wont run them because they're afraid of being smeared as "liberal media (tm)". On iTune's list of podcasts, the number two podcast is the Al Franken Show. Ted Koppel comes in at #9. I see no conservative shows on the list.

Jon Stewart's Daily Show is one of the most popular shows on TV now. Yes, it's comedy, but that's what you get when you follow these conservative politicians around. Yes, he makes fun of liberals too.

There's a huge market for liberal shows. It's just hard to find a broadcaster who's willing to put up with Rupert et al.'s "LIBERAL MEDIA LIBERAL MEDIA" smear campaigns.

Tyson

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« Reply #37 on: July 12, 2005, 10:56:25 PM »
Funny: I just saw a clip of Rupert Murdoch being asked who the "liberal viewpoints" are at Fox at some kind of Senate hearing. He named Alan Colmes and... uhh... and... Grita (sp?) and.... uhhh...

Then he changed the subject.

Nice.

Tyson

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« Reply #38 on: July 12, 2005, 11:00:51 PM »
Statistics time!

Fox has 5 times as many Republican guests as it does Democratic guests.
On "Special Report", 83% of the guests are Republicans.
The "liberal" people who were brought on tended to be centrists.

"Fair and Balanced" har har!

Offline Nubbins

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« Reply #39 on: July 12, 2005, 11:13:05 PM »
Quote from: yotoc
Seriously Nubs.  Your argument is weak.  Oh, it's fox news, it must be a lie.  I understand you all have this eternal hard-on for the day our lord and savior Bill Clinton rises up and throw down Satan (lolBushlol) and regains his throne.  I just can't understand this blatent fanboyism for anything bad about the evil republicans.  Should I start posting about the millions of things that the democrats do and say to show how they are the party of the elite stepping on the backs of the poor on their way to the top?  I get just as much news from cnn and npr as I do fox and I am smart enough to be able to separate the bullshit from the facts.  Maybe I'm the only one.


I never said that the Fox story was a lie.  When I said, "I got it wrong," that's what I really meant.  I'd said earlier in a previous post that Plame went to collect yellow cake data in her husband's place when that really wasn't the case.  The argument was actually over WHO had sent Wilson to collect yellow cake data in the first place, as the Fox News article clearly pointed out.  I never intended to imply that I thought the Fox article was a fake, even though I realize that's how it read.  I was only trying to point out that I read Fox News for my news as much as I read anything else that is typically dismissed as a leftist media source.

Actually, dude... I'm not even being sarcastic, but I thought it was pretty cool that Fox News featured this story the way they did.  On my way to work today, while CNN was engrossed in news about Dennis and bullshit storm legislation, Fox was busy trying to explain what was going on with Rove.

I thought this Fox News article was pretty well done.... it managed to both express the concerns with what Rove may or may not have done while also criticizing the attacks against him.  It featured quotes from both the left and the right on issues and, despite the Fox reputation for leaning towards the right, didn't completely dismiss the fact that Karl Rove might be in some serious trouble over this shit.

I think I'm probably a lot more middle-of-the-road than you're giving me credit for.  Granted, I think Rove and Bush are evil motherfuckers, but I'm willing to concede that without definite proof, that assertion remains mere speculation.  It's entirely possible that their motives for the direction in which they're guiding this country are completely genuine.  I also understand that the Dems are by no means these Knights in White Armor all the militant Leftists would have you believe they are.

Bottom Line:  Politics is a dirty business, no matter what side you're on and if you expect to survive, then dirty politics are your best weapon in order to do just that.  Do I think Clinton had equally dark secrets among his administration?  Hell yeah he did... the guy somehow managed to escape direct evidence that he'd ejaculated ON an intern AND send a coordinated, preemptive missile strike on a despotic dictator in Yugoslavia AND managed to dealy his own impeachement hearing by lauching even more missiles on Iraq.  Clinton was the fucking man when it came to dirty politics.

I refuse to align myself with a course of events simply because they may or may not fit what I believe.  I questioned Clinton when he shot missiles into Iraq the night before his impeachement hearings began and I currently question the motives of the White House when they refuse to state what they've previously been open about in regards to this CIA leak.  

I just think we need to hold our government to higher standards is all... I think that given the proper circumstances, you'd probably find that I'm a lot more middle ground than it would appear in this thread.
8=o tation

Tyson

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« Reply #40 on: July 12, 2005, 11:25:32 PM »
Oh my god. This O'Reilly thing against Glick is making my blood boil.

yotoc

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« Reply #41 on: July 13, 2005, 12:02:04 AM »
Quote from: Tyson
Statistics time!

Fox has 5 times as many Republican guests as it does Democratic guests.
On "Special Report", 83% of the guests are Republicans.
The "liberal" people who were brought on tended to be centrists.

"Fair and Balanced" har har!


I always took "Fair and Balanced" to be a dig at CNN for actually believing they were.  Fox never was and hopefully never will be fair and balanced.  Funny thing...everybody says there's no bias in the liberal media but there is on fox.  That really doesn't make sense to me.  You people really believe CNN is unbiased?  CBS, NBC?  CBS????  C'mon.

yotoc

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« Reply #42 on: July 13, 2005, 12:06:47 AM »
Quote from: Nubbins
Quote from: yotoc
Seriously Nubs.  Your argument is weak.  Oh, it's fox news, it must be a lie.  I understand you all have this eternal hard-on for the day our lord and savior Bill Clinton rises up and throw down Satan (lolBushlol) and regains his throne.  I just can't understand this blatent fanboyism for anything bad about the evil republicans.  Should I start posting about the millions of things that the democrats do and say to show how they are the party of the elite stepping on the backs of the poor on their way to the top?  I get just as much news from cnn and npr as I do fox and I am smart enough to be able to separate the bullshit from the facts.  Maybe I'm the only one.


I never said that the Fox story was a lie.  When I said, "I got it wrong," that's what I really meant.  I'd said earlier in a previous post that Plame went to collect yellow cake data in her husband's place when that really wasn't the case.  The argument was actually over WHO had sent Wilson to collect yellow cake data in the first place, as the Fox News article clearly pointed out.  I never intended to imply that I thought the Fox article was a fake, even though I realize that's how it read.  I was only trying to point out that I read Fox News for my news as much as I read anything else that is typically dismissed as a leftist media source.

Actually, dude... I'm not even being sarcastic, but I thought it was pretty cool that Fox News featured this story the way they did.  On my way to work today, while CNN was engrossed in news about Dennis and bullshit storm legislation, Fox was busy trying to explain what was going on with Rove.

I thought this Fox News article was pretty well done.... it managed to both express the concerns with what Rove may or may not have done while also criticizing the attacks against him.  It featured quotes from both the left and the right on issues and, despite the Fox reputation for leaning towards the right, didn't completely dismiss the fact that Karl Rove might be in some serious trouble over this shit.

I think I'm probably a lot more middle-of-the-road than you're giving me credit for.  Granted, I think Rove and Bush are evil motherfuckers, but I'm willing to concede that without definite proof, that assertion remains mere speculation.  It's entirely possible that their motives for the direction in which they're guiding this country are completely genuine.  I also understand that the Dems are by no means these Knights in White Armor all the militant Leftists would have you believe they are.

Bottom Line:  Politics is a dirty business, no matter what side you're on and if you expect to survive, then dirty politics are your best weapon in order to do just that.  Do I think Clinton had equally dark secrets among his administration?  Hell yeah he did... the guy somehow managed to escape direct evidence that he'd ejaculated ON an intern AND send a coordinated, preemptive missile strike on a despotic dictator in Yugoslavia AND managed to dealy his own impeachement hearing by lauching even more missiles on Iraq.  Clinton was the fucking man when it came to dirty politics.

I refuse to align myself with a course of events simply because they may or may not fit what I believe.  I questioned Clinton when he shot missiles into Iraq the night before his impeachement hearings began and I currently question the motives of the White House when they refuse to state what they've previously been open about in regards to this CIA leak.  

I just think we need to hold our government to higher standards is all... I think that given the proper circumstances, you'd probably find that I'm a lot more middle ground than it would appear in this thread.


Ok, I'll take back some of the venom.  I have one question for you people who think Bush=Hitler=Satan.  Which is worse, killing people in wars for your own personal agenda or sitting back and doing nothing while millions of civilians are murdered(Clinton).  Oh wait, he fired off a couple missles one day.

-edit:  Damn, I really need to read the entire post before I reply.  Whoops.

Offline Nubbins

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« Reply #43 on: July 13, 2005, 12:08:31 AM »
Quote from: yotoc


I always took "Fair and Balanced" to be a dig at Media A  for actually believing they were.  Media B never was and hopefully never will be fair and balanced.  Funny thing...everybody says there's no bias in the liberal media but there is on Media B.  That really doesn't make sense to me.  You people really believe Media A is unbiased?  Media C, Media D?  Media E???  C'mon.




Same old, same old.... invent something new already.
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yotoc

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« Reply #44 on: July 13, 2005, 12:11:29 AM »
Quote from: Nubbins
Quote from: yotoc


I always took "Fair and Balanced" to be a dig at Media A  for actually believing they were.  Media B never was and hopefully never will be fair and balanced.  Funny thing...everybody says there's no bias in the liberal media but there is on Media B.  That really doesn't make sense to me.  You people really believe Media A is unbiased?  Media C, Media D?  Media E???  C'mon.




Same old, same old.... invent something new already.


That wasn't my point.  I derailed myself.  I meant that their slogan was a joke, it was supposed to be a joke.  Making fun of both the left and the right.