Author Topic: America the poor  (Read 33428 times)

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Offline nacho

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Re: America the poor
« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2007, 05:13:40 PM »
Also, it's easier to affect politics at the local level.  And by this I mean...in the right way...educate the population about and issue and let them decide.

And...there we go.  What I keep saying about elections. The local elections are the most important ones you can participate in.  More state power can improve this country by leaps and bounds. 

If you have a huge urban population clamouring for a higher wage, and they vote on it, it doesn't matter what Joe Selectman thinks, RC.


You wait. Eventually we'll be like the Middle East where people with masters degrees in engineering are cab drivers.

You have that backwards, man.  The highly educated in the Mid East are cab drivers here.

Offline RottingCorpse

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Re: America the poor
« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2007, 05:15:07 PM »
Like I said, you wait.

Offline nacho

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Re: America the poor
« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2007, 05:21:37 PM »
Just you wait, young man!  The Austro-Hungarian Empire is doomed!

Offline RottingCorpse

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Re: America the poor
« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2007, 05:22:53 PM »
"I cannot live in a world without National Socialism!"

Offline nacho

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Re: America the poor
« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2007, 05:32:31 PM »
The automobile is a flash in the pan!

Offline RottingCorpse

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Re: America the poor
« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2007, 05:34:06 PM »
"An independent America? I can't think of anything more preposterous."

Offline fajwat

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Re: America the poor
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2007, 11:41:49 PM »
OK, so what's everyone's favorite inflation statistic source?  Because inflation is how the man cheats us all.  That's what this wage hike is really all about.

The official data (use CPI-U unless you're Matt) shows about 13.6% inflation between 2002 and 2006:
http://www.bls.gov/cpi/
official calculator shows 12%:
http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl

Having seen my 2007 raise today, I got 6.6666%, a smidge above the officially esitmated 3.8% CPI-U for 2006.  I now total 33.333% in raises between Nov 2002 and now.

My bank accounts get 5.25% and 4.5% interest.  Last I checked minimums were $1k and direct deposit of $200/mo or more.

I can absofuckinglutely guarantee you that my managers have all gotten quite a bit more than that.  C'mon, America.  If greed is such a great value, why is it reserved exclusively for the rich?  I'm not saying greed is good but we can't just mope around with broken down cars, crappy bus systems and holes in our socks just because we reserve the right for someone else to help America be great by being greedy and putting some show of it on the TV.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2007, 11:44:04 PM by fajwat »
"If it were up to me I would close Guantánamo not tomorrow but this afternoon... Essentially, we have shaken the belief that the world had in America's justice system... and it's causing us far more damage than any good we get from it."

-Colin Powell

Offline Reginald McGraw

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Re: America the poor
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2007, 09:11:04 AM »
Most likely your managers have gotten about the same as that percentage-wise.  They just make a lot more than you, so the same percentage == a lot more $$$.

I don't think I understand your greed point.  Are you saying "I want to be greedy so I should get paid more?"

Offline fajwat

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Re: America the poor
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2007, 09:31:22 AM »
I'm saying horatio-algier-american-dream-capitalism is based on the premise that "greed is good" and anyone can be Oprah and go from rags to unbelievably filthy stinkin rich.

so greed ends up being good, but only when it's associated with someone who's been outrageously successfully greedy -- RICH.  But if Joe Construction Worker wants a raise, or Jill Burger Flipper has been paid minimum wage which has dipped to 55% of the poverty level ( http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/anth484/minwage.html ) suddenly everyone's piously outraged that anyone could be greedy (and unsuccessful) and so ugly.
"If it were up to me I would close Guantánamo not tomorrow but this afternoon... Essentially, we have shaken the belief that the world had in America's justice system... and it's causing us far more damage than any good we get from it."

-Colin Powell

Offline fajwat

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Re: America the poor
« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2007, 09:33:42 AM »
Meanwhile, I didn't ask for half of the raises I've gotten on this contract.  And only twice have I said anything other than "I may not be worth more but the dollar's worth less."  That's a direct quote from my yearly negotiations.  I get 6.666% and I'm pissed as hell at the criminally low wages paid to so many people.
"If it were up to me I would close Guantánamo not tomorrow but this afternoon... Essentially, we have shaken the belief that the world had in America's justice system... and it's causing us far more damage than any good we get from it."

-Colin Powell

Offline Reginald McGraw

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Re: America the poor
« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2007, 09:47:52 AM »
suddenly everyone's piously outraged that anyone could be greedy (and unsuccessful) and so ugly.

Well, I think the type of people who are outraged don't consider greed evil or bad.  Instead they consider a government mandate evil and bad.

Do you know people who are mad at Joe Hamburger flipper because the government increases minimum wage?  I would think people would be mad (or happy) with the government for that.

Offline fajwat

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Re: America the poor
« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2007, 10:41:02 AM »
okay: government mandates:
tax cuts for rich!

And yes, during many conversations (mostly years ago but a few more recently) people complain that small business would get crushed (not small business owners themselves -- most of them didn't complain and I've known a few).  People who make $9/hr and up complain this frequently: "If minimum wage were higher (in the context of hikes which would not raise minimum wage for a single 40hr/wk worker above poverty level) then we'd all have to pay $10 for a burger at McDonalds, and $30 or more for a haircut!  Can you imagine how awful all this would be?"

...except... if the minimum wage was at poverty level we'd all have enough to buy what we need?  And higher earners would likely also get a little boost?  Hello?  Um?
"If it were up to me I would close Guantánamo not tomorrow but this afternoon... Essentially, we have shaken the belief that the world had in America's justice system... and it's causing us far more damage than any good we get from it."

-Colin Powell

Offline Reginald McGraw

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Re: America the poor
« Reply #42 on: January 12, 2007, 11:56:16 AM »
okay: government mandates:
tax cuts for rich!

Well, it's a minor quibble, but I consider tax cuts (for anyone) a removal of government mandate.

And yes, during many conversations (mostly years ago but a few more recently) people complain that small business would get crushed (not small business owners themselves -- most of them didn't complain and I've known a few).  People who make $9/hr and up complain this frequently: "If minimum wage were higher (in the context of hikes which would not raise minimum wage for a single 40hr/wk worker above poverty level) then we'd all have to pay $10 for a burger at McDonalds, and $30 or more for a haircut!  Can you imagine how awful all this would be?"

But even in your argument here...the complaining is not against the small business or the people who work there.  The complaining is against the fact that it's happening.

Also, that's a strange argument (about raising prices).  Most of our discussion here has focused on loss of jobs.  I had assumed that was the standard argument.

...except... if the minimum wage was at poverty level we'd all have enough to buy what we need?  And higher earners would likely also get a little boost?  Hello?  Um?

Well why not set the minimum wage to $200/hour then?  Why not?  Let's all get fat and happy?  Because there is some threshold at which companies cannot cut payroll or make less profit.  Where that threshold is, is of course the biggest debate among the setters of this artificial wage.

Also, if the minimum wage was at poverty level, the poverty level would be moved higher.

Offline fajwat

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Re: America the poor
« Reply #43 on: January 12, 2007, 02:03:50 PM »
okay: government mandates:
tax cuts for rich!

Well, it's a minor quibble, but I consider tax cuts (for anyone) a removal of government mandate.

Of course they are.  Except it's still a change in the mandate, which doesn't remove the mandate.  It's a very selective rebalancing of an existing mandate.  Gee, when we add healthcare or welfare or social security it's an "entitlement".  When we make multifarious tax cuts which primarily or exclusively benefit the rich, it's "removing a governmental burden".  Notice how the debate's been framed?  No non-anarchists are really advocating the removal of all taxes, so while we have taxes the burden should be shared fairly.

Quote from: McGraw
And yes, during many conversations (mostly years ago but a few more recently) people complain that small business would get crushed (not small business owners themselves -- most of them didn't complain and I've known a few).  People who make $9/hr and up complain this frequently: "If minimum wage were higher (in the context of hikes which would not raise minimum wage for a single 40hr/wk worker above poverty level) then we'd all have to pay $10 for a burger at McDonalds, and $30 or more for a haircut!  Can you imagine how awful all this would be?"

But even in your argument here...the complaining is not against the small business or the people who work there.  The complaining is against the fact that it's happening.

Also, that's a strange argument (about raising prices).  Most of our discussion here has focused on loss of jobs.  I had assumed that was the standard argument.
"complaining is against the fact.."  You're right, that argument comes from people who are angry with those arguing for the change.  And since nominally it's gvt by/for people, they're angry with the advocates as proxies for the gvt.  After the change occurs the primary focus will be on gvt itself, not the advocates who helped it happen.

"prices..loss of jobs"
The reason jobs would be lost is because all the (artificially) cheap stuff would cost more and the theory goes that people wouldn't gracefully accept the transition.  The reality is that businesses would rather squeeze their employees first (especially the lowest paid ones), then the customer, then themselves last.  The other argument is that with globalization, local prices would overshadow imported prices by higher margins, causing business to shift towards imports.

But the change in cost of goods/services is the beginning, and loss of jobs is a frequently forcasted result.  More so today than in yesteryear since we're more globalized.

Quote from: McGraw
...except... if the minimum wage was at poverty level we'd all have enough to buy what we need?  And higher earners would likely also get a little boost?  Hello?  Um?

Well why not set the minimum wage to $200/hour then?  Why not?  Let's all get fat and happy?  Because there is some threshold at which companies cannot cut payroll or make less profit.  Where that threshold is, is of course the biggest debate among the setters of this artificial wage.

Also, if the minimum wage was at poverty level, the poverty level would be moved higher.

1) less profit?!?!?!?  Ohhh noes!!!
We don't need huge inflated corporate profits saddled on the backs of injustly treated workers.  We need services and goods, not corporate profits.  We're back to "greed is good for rich CEOs and corporations!" again while arguing against the poverty stricken masses.

2) I'll look up the definition of poverty but I really truly doubt that your assertion makes sense. 
« Last Edit: January 12, 2007, 02:06:49 PM by fajwat »
"If it were up to me I would close Guantánamo not tomorrow but this afternoon... Essentially, we have shaken the belief that the world had in America's justice system... and it's causing us far more damage than any good we get from it."

-Colin Powell

Offline Reginald McGraw

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Re: America the poor
« Reply #44 on: January 12, 2007, 04:35:32 PM »
No non-anarchists are really advocating the removal of all taxes, so while we have taxes the burden should be shared fairly.

I'd happily support a flat tax rate.  Then the burden would be shared fairly.  Right now the rich pay at a higher rate.

"complaining is against the fact.."  You're right, that argument comes from people who are angry with those arguing for the change.  And since nominally it's gvt by/for people, they're angry with the advocates as proxies for the gvt.  After the change occurs the primary focus will be on gvt itself, not the advocates who helped it happen.

But your original comment was about people being "outraged that anyone could be greedy (and unsuccessful) and so ugly."  Which is not the government or the advocates.

1) less profit?!?!?!?  Ohhh noes!!!
We don't need huge inflated corporate profits saddled on the backs of injustly treated workers.  We need services and goods, not corporate profits.  We're back to "greed is good for rich CEOs and corporations!" again while arguing against the poverty stricken masses.

Not every business operates with huge inflated profits.  Most businesses that DO, probably aren't employing too many minimum wagers.  The businesses that are operating with a consistently narrow profit margin will be most affected by an increase in minimum wage.

2) I'll look up the definition of poverty but I really truly doubt that your assertion makes sense. 

My assertion is based on the artificial poverty line that is published by the government.  You make less than X, you are in poverty.