Author Topic: Superhero Movies  (Read 136802 times)

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Offline nacho

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Re: Superhero Movies
« Reply #285 on: July 29, 2014, 02:22:29 PM »
Tor's review:

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But if you’re anything like me, and somehow haven’t gotten sick of the ironic juxtaposition of 70s pop music set against the backdrop of a technicolor Mos Eisley, I’m here to tell you that Guardian’s of the Galaxy is the greatest remake of Footloose that you will likely ever see.

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2014/07/guardians-of-the-galaxy-movie-review

Offline nacho

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Re: Superhero Movies
« Reply #286 on: August 01, 2014, 10:35:04 AM »
So what does the critical smash of Guardians of the Galaxy (and the rise of superhero TV) do for the theory in the superhero movie article that you'll never write, RC?

Offline RottingCorpse

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Re: Superhero Movies
« Reply #287 on: August 01, 2014, 11:11:59 AM »
The end is still coming. I think I said somewhere in this thread that GotG wouldn't be Marvel's big bomb.

It'll be Ant Man.

Offline RottingCorpse

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Re: Superhero Movies
« Reply #288 on: August 01, 2014, 11:35:29 AM »
Gah! Having no time to be even be thinking about this, here's the short and skinny (the pitch if you will) of the article I'll never write:

My thesis is that the superhero movie "bubble" has reached it's bursting point, and that the business model supporting the creation and distribution of these films is unsustainable for three reasons.

1. The Shared Universe model makes no room for failure and stifles creativity. (When Ant-Man tanks, what does that do to the larger "Phase 2" storyline that Ant-Man is supposed to fit into? Also Edgar Wright got kicked off Ant-Man because his individual vision didn't fit within the greater shared Universe. Remember that he started working on it before The Avengers hit.)
     
2. The law of diminishing returns. (Each Spider-Man movie has made less than the one before.)

3. Oversaturation of the marketplace. (There's at least six superhero movies coming out every year for the next few years. That's not to mention all the other genre stuff it's competing with.)

3 1/2.  Reboot fatigue and aging demographics. (Hugh Jackman and Robert Downey Jr. aren't getting any younger. They still haven't found a Superman as good as Christopher Reeve. Also, the 40 year old execs who grew up on comic books will eventually be replaced by younger execs who grew up on Pokemon, Nick Jr. and Xbox.)

So, Mr. Editor. Does it pass muster?
« Last Edit: August 01, 2014, 11:38:28 AM by RottingCorpse »

Offline nacho

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Re: Superhero Movies
« Reply #289 on: August 01, 2014, 02:42:49 PM »
For point 1, it seems like they're fairly conservative at start. Ant-Man just vanishes if it tanks. The failure is paid for by the gazillion dollars made by GotG 2.

For point 2, they seem to have mastered sub-franchises within the genre. Some can rest for a bit if need be...or join only as part of an ensemble (which is how they've handled Hulk, yes?)

For point 3, SDCC sort of proved the demand. Superhero flicks were the big winners. But, yes, this is the core of the discussion...at what point does it become oversaturation?

For point 3.5, they have no qualms replacing stars, and the Xbox producers of the future will be catering to the Xbox audience, which is certainly how Msrvel's already been handling this... Superman today is unrecognizable to Superman of 1980.

Offline RottingCorpse

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Re: Superhero Movies
« Reply #290 on: August 01, 2014, 03:40:13 PM »
For point 1, it seems like they're fairly conservative at start. Ant-Man just vanishes if it tanks. The failure is paid for by the gazillion dollars made by GotG 2.

Marvel has actually shown an incredible amount of restraint, and I hope they're rewarded for taking a huge chance on Guardians of the Galaxy which everybody was spelling doom and gloom for this time last year. (It's the same way they, and I, are spelling doom for next year's Ant-Man now. I'm sticking to my guns on this one though.) They've been very good at branding their individual franchises and can probably financially and creatively absorb the hit they'll take when Ant-Man tanks. Though being in development for almost eight years(?) now, I'd be interested in how much money they already have invested in Ant-Man even if though it hasn't begun shooting. I have a feeling that's why they're less inclined to take a GotG style chance on it with somebody as gonzo as Edgar Wright at this point. It's the Alien 3/Vincent Ward syndrome. They hired Wright/Ward for their vision and fired them for the same reason.

(I'll add that Disney, Marvel's parent company, can financially absorb just about any movie loss. See John Carter. You'll apparently be the only one who did.)

Marvels's Shared Universe/Avengers concept is akin to the first Matrix movie. They broke the ground and did something creatively (and financially) fantastic. It was an enormous risk, but it succeeded beyond anybody's expectations. Now we're getting all the rip-offs. This Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice movie is a direct response to the success of The Avengers only DC/Warner Bros. is trying to quasi-reverse engineer that success. The Avengers worked because we spent entire movies with the characters of Iron Man, the Hulk, Captain America, Thor, and Loki. Coulson, Nick Fury, and Black Widow had also had supporting roles in previous Marvel movies. Hawkeye was the only new character we had to deal with. (Though even had a cameo in Thor) Whedon didn't have to waste any time introducing us to anybody. The Avengers was unapologetic about not catching up the audience with what came before and it was awesome because of that.

David Fincher, I believe (Or maybe it was James Cameron), said some great things once about comic book movies needing to eschew origin stories altogether. Both Tim Burton's Batman and Bryan Singer's X-Men work largely because the superheroes are already established when the movies start. Now maybe this is why Wonder Woman being introduced to us in BvS will work because on a certain level who cares how she got to where she's at? Tell me a story about the character now. However, if we're also getting Aquaman, Luthor, Doomsday, Cyborg and who knows what else in it, are we really going to have time to develop her? My gut is that BvS will make loads, but will the story work? I don't know, man. It seems like a lot to swallow at once. Man of Steel barely worked and it divided fanboys and casual moviegoers immensely. Batman could also suffer Spider-Man syndrome where the Nolan/Bale version is so recent that BatFleck may be too much change to handle at once.

For point 2, they seem to have mastered sub-franchises within the genre. Some can rest for a bit if need be...or join only as part of an ensemble (which is how they've handled Hulk, yes?)

They're not resting them long enough. The Hulk in the exception that proves the rule because the Bana and Norton versions never quite got it right in the first place. Whedon and Ruffalo nailed it, mostly by having the character distilled down to it's essence because it needed to function in the ensemble.

Spider-Man is the cautionary tale here. Sony has to make a Spidey movie every three years or Marvel gets the rights back. Raimi and MacGuire walked (or were pushed out) so a reboot was inevitable. They had to do it or let Marvel get it's baby back. After The Avengers, Sony started their own Shared Universe plan with movie about Venom, The Sinister Six, etc; movies about villains, put into motion. Only the Spider-Man movies keep losing money. ASM2 made less than all the others so now Sony is having second thoughts about building their company's tentpole around what seems to be a failing franchise. (This only helps Marvel in trying to leverage the rights back.)

What Spider-Man needs is a creative shot in the arm. They could spend half the money to make an intimate Spider-Man movie that would please fans while still raking in money. But they can't take those kinds of risks. There's too much money at stake.

Batman sort of has the same problem. The Nolan movies are now the gold standard, yet less than five years later we're getting served up a new version. (One that's not too far off from the old one I might add). It's too soon. Batman Begins worked because the franchise had already been driven into the ground. Remember what a risk *that* was when they were making it?

Marvel is doing it right, but I have a feeling hubris is setting in.

For point 3, SDCC sort of proved the demand. Superhero flicks were the big winners. But, yes, this is the core of the discussion...at what point does it become oversaturation?

Even the glowing reviews of Guardians of the Galaxy say something among the lines of "GotG follows the Marvel formula. Down on his luck guy, MacGuffin, bonding battle, world threat, blah, blah, blah." Almost all the reviews mention it. Call it "Superhero Save the Cat." At some point, people will go, "These are all the same movie." They might go see Justice League and The Avengers 2 & 3 because they're the gonzo, team-up, VFX freak outs, but they may start staying home for the likes of Thor 3, Doctor Strange, Wonder Woman 2, etc because going to the movies is fucking expensive. Also, just because I like a Big Mac every once in a while doesn't mean I like everything McDonald's serves.

The Ant-Man/Wright deal bothers me because it seems like keeping it fresh is the way to sustain it. And the Wright firing reeks of "this movie needs to fall in line with the others." It was the success of Iron Man, Thor, and Captain America that made The Avengers possible. People responded to Nolan's vision of Batman more than how Batman fit into a larger picture.

For point 3.5, they have no qualms replacing stars, and the Xbox producers of the future will be catering to the Xbox audience, which is certainly how Marvel's already been handling this... Superman today is unrecognizable to Superman of 1980.

Just because they have no problem replacing stars doesn't mean we accept them. My wife refuses to watch the non-Raimi Spider-Man movies and doesn't really want to see BatFleck. She's not loyal to the brand. She's loyal to the vision. (Though Marvel can do no wrong in her eyes. I keep telling her to wait until they replace Jackman and Downey Jr.) Marvel has crossed over into the mainstream, but mainstream tastes change. To use a hockey metaphor I stole from someone else; If Marvel wants to keep up, they have to keep predicting where the puck is going, unlike DC/WB who keeps trying to keep up with where the puck is at.

There's a great article making the rounds right now about the immense cost to market movies and how that model is unsustainable. The Spielberg/Lucas "death of the blockbuster" rhetoric from a year ago is still in the ether. Both the amount of content available on the internet and the democratization of high production value filmamking has changed the game dramatically. A paradigm shift of some sort is coming. What it will be is anyone's guess.


EDIT:
And all this mess I spewed out while procrastinating other work is just scratching the surface of all the reasons why Superhero fans should batten down the hatches. That's why I haven't written the piece; because it would probably be long enough that you could publish it.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2014, 05:19:20 PM by RottingCorpse »

Offline nacho

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Re: Superhero Movies
« Reply #291 on: August 04, 2014, 08:53:12 AM »
So GotG had the biggest August opening ever, and came in just slightly below Transformers (which lied about their numbers) and Captain America. And:

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Overseas, GotG debuted to $66.4-million. For those of you keeping score at home, $65–70M is what the film was originally projected to gross here in the U.S. – that it met that projection overseas, and outstripped it domestically by fifty percent, is huge. Just huge.

Offline Sirharles

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Re: Superhero Movies
« Reply #292 on: August 04, 2014, 10:01:10 AM »
A friend saw Guardians and claimed it the best movie of the summer.  The same friend watched the Lego movie twice though because he thought it was that great....so take everything with a grain of salt.


Offline nacho

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Re: Superhero Movies
« Reply #293 on: August 04, 2014, 10:05:17 AM »
The Lego movie is a strangely subtle little pop culture social experiment beneath the screaming and glitz.

Offline nacho

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Re: Superhero Movies
« Reply #294 on: August 04, 2014, 10:54:13 AM »
Oh! Here's where he got the Lego link -- io9's spoiler-free review:

Quote
So yeah, Guardians of the Galaxy is terrific. My weekend plans are basically "see Guardians of the Galaxy again." Its playfulness and cleverness reminds me of LEGO Movie, another retro-pop adventure film where Chris Pratt finds your inner child and makes him/her jump up and down with giddiness. Plus there's a bit of Firefly in the mix.

http://io9.com/watching-guardians-of-the-galaxy-is-like-getting-back-p-1614421231

Offline RottingCorpse

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Re: Superhero Movies
« Reply #295 on: August 04, 2014, 10:55:15 AM »
I loved GotG. No review except to say go see it. It's the best movie of it's kind since Return of the Jedi.

Offline RottingCorpse

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Re: Superhero Movies
« Reply #296 on: August 04, 2014, 11:19:26 AM »
Okay fine. Quick review while I wait on my coffee to brew. In no particular order but when they pop into my head, here's five reasons why Guardians of the Galaxy is awesome.

1.) The 70s music makes it feel lie a live action version of Heavy Metal. Also, the music is essential to the Peter Quill character instead of using AC/DC to make Iron Man seem badass.

2.) It's an outcast movie about real outcasts. Now that geek is chic, we long time genre folks feel like the cool kids found our secret clubhouse where we go to get away from them. Every Marvel movie has the "cool" outcast now, but they're not really an outcast. There's the genuine feeling in this movie that our five Guardians are truly outliers of their society. Most of them don't seem to care, but all of them seem a little lonely. It's this unspoken need for each other that makes the film work more than anything. It's not your typical Save the Cat character number even though the basic plot is paint by numbers.

3.) It's genuinely funny and never takes itself too seriously. Every time you think it's going to fall into a trope, it throws you just a little curveball.

4.) Zoe Saldana seems to be getting left out in the cold in the glowing reviews, but in some ways, she's the glue that holds the team together. Somebody's got to be the straight man in this zany crew, and she sort of functions that way. Yet even she has these great moments, mostly with Chris Pratt's Peter Quill, that are zingingly funny.

5.) The Raccoon and the Tree. They're just a wonder to behold.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2014, 11:33:33 AM by RottingCorpse »

Offline RottingCorpse

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Re: Superhero Movies
« Reply #297 on: August 04, 2014, 11:22:26 AM »
And 5 1/2... It's emotional without being manipulative. I think that more than anything is why people are responding to it. When's the last time a movie like this genuinely moved you?

Offline nacho

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Re: Superhero Movies
« Reply #298 on: August 04, 2014, 11:23:50 AM »
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Every Marvel movie has the "cool" outcast now, but they're not really an outcast.

This is a great point! And the sort of nagging thing that rattles around in the back of my head when the outcasts are, say, uber-hot and totally functional Natalie Portman and Kat Dennings, who are the sort of girls that used to spit on outcasts!

Offline RottingCorpse

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Re: Superhero Movies
« Reply #299 on: August 04, 2014, 11:31:59 AM »
I mean, it's Chis Pratt and Zoe Saldana in this movie, neither of whom will ever be mistaken for nerds. Yet they embody the emotional space of an outcast in a way that Andrew Garfield as Spider-Man or even Chris Evans Captain America never quite does.