Author Topic: The Rise & Fall of the Spider-Man Franchise  (Read 45730 times)

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Offline Cassander

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Re: The Rise & Fall of the Spider-Man Franchise
« Reply #45 on: June 28, 2006, 10:47:38 AM »
Are you kidding?  That was there from day one.   The first movie was an episode of the Batman TV show with its plot cleverly hidden by special effects and Kirsten Dunst's boobies. 
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Offline Matt

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Re: The Rise & Fall of the Spider-Man Franchise
« Reply #46 on: June 28, 2006, 12:11:47 PM »
Okay, I think I was trying to make a leap that requires reading this article:
http://doublearticulation.blogspot.com/2006/05/deconstructing-brett-ratners-x3-2006.html

The point of that was that the 3rd movie sacrifices the emotion and depth of the original two in favor of special effects and action, and the action doesn't even have depth or emotional impact, such as having Wolverine, who, in the movies, hasn't really done anything with Jean and can't spew bullshit about how he loves her.

I disagree, immensely, that Raimi's Spider-man hasn't been true to the comics in spirit. Have you read them recently? He's a teenager forever; there's very little maturity and development. Everything is about how bad drugs are and how many villains are created by the mis-use of drugs, they might as well have it be "DARE SPONSORS SPIDER-MAN: D.A.R.E. to websling!" That's classic Spider-man. Then the Ultimate Spider-man franchise is aimed at an even younger audience. The clone storyline? That's just revisionist bullshit to help reorganize the storyline. It would be like making an Infinite Crisis movie; no one would get it and no one would care. You say that packing on the villains is franchise fatigue; I'd agree with RC that there's studio pressure, but I really think Venom is just going to be set-up for Spider-man 4.

Just creating a super-villain Carnage and throwing him at Spider-man without reason is dumb. And Raimi or others have only said these people (Venom and Sandman and the Green Goblin 2) appear in the movie, not that they are the movie. Sandman is obviously in the movie. I see a cliff-hanger that involves losing Mary-Jane and losing the symbiote and a crushed Parker at the end of the movie, and then it leads to Gwen Stacy being killed in 4 by Venom or Harry Osborn if he makes it through 3.

Offline Cassander

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Re: The Rise & Fall of the Spider-Man Franchise
« Reply #47 on: June 28, 2006, 12:54:39 PM »
Maybe I'm getting too old for these movies. Scary thought, huh?  I agree that the spider-man comics have always for the most part been pretty tame.

"Gosh darn that Harry Osborne!"

And the movies follow that same light-heartedness to a point.  Maybe the thing that gets me is grown adults acting like kids about these movies.  I'm not saying we shouldn't retain some kind of childhood excitement, but it seems too often that adults just turn off the critical parts of their minds whenever these monumental icons appear on the screen.  Like, I would be okay with everything you said if we were approaching it as a kids film instead of a real piece of movie history.  I would hold up as an example of a movie that is both kid-friendly and adult-friendly without ever slipping into formulaic, horrible writing or cliches--Raiders of the Lost Ark.  no nudity, hardly any cursing, but plenty of great, memorable special effects without going over the top.  There's zero believabliity factor, but things still manage to seem plausible.  Indy outruns a boulder is a lot more entertaining to watch than spidey stopping an elevated train. 

I just wish somehow that almost every single episode three of any trilogy didn't seem like some kind of brainless cash-in (the exception being, again, Indy and the Last Crusade; even Jedi retreads back into "let's blow up the death star...again!").  They're almost always worthless.  If they could just get as excited and pumped about #3 as the first movie, we'd get a lot better films. 

This is my last spider-man post for the day.  I'm getting too fired up. 
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Offline Reginald McGraw

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Re: The Rise & Fall of the Spider-Man Franchise
« Reply #48 on: June 28, 2006, 01:23:22 PM »
Maybe the thing that gets me is grown adults acting like kids about these movies.  I'm not saying we shouldn't retain some kind of childhood excitement, but it seems too often that adults just turn off the critical parts of their minds whenever these monumental icons appear on the screen.  Like, I would be okay with everything you said if we were approaching it as a kids film instead of a real piece of movie history.

I guess I consider any movie with super heroes/comic characters a kids movie and thus I do turn off the critical part of my mind.  I'm also rarely disappointed with these types of movies (The Hulk being a glaring exception).

In general, I give a lot more latitude to movies that have fantasy or fantastic elements.  Just stick to whatever rules you set-up for yourself and make those elements cool.

Offline Matt

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Re: The Rise & Fall of the Spider-Man Franchise
« Reply #49 on: June 28, 2006, 01:30:56 PM »
The thing is, I believe in comic book movies and superheroes as a legitimate storytelling medium to tell stories of great depth and substance. I believe this because I've seen it done in comic books and I've seen Singer's X-Men movies do it. The major problem with Spider-man 2 was the soundtrack and the accompanying tone it lent the movie.

I think part of it is grown adults acting like kids because that's when most people stopped reading comic books, especially superhero ones. Most of the people that read comic books these days are still viewed as childish or snobby pseudo-intellectuals who are okay with comic books being cool because a critic in the New Yorker really liked Watchmen, and Daniel Clowes is so artful and Alex Robinson does a great job portraying the real life situations we all face.

Offline RottingCorpse

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Re: The Rise & Fall of the Spider-Man Franchise
« Reply #50 on: June 28, 2006, 03:52:42 PM »
Ultimately, you have to serve the story and characters best.

If all the elements, Good/Evil-Spider-Man, Gwen Stacy/MJ, Sandman, Harry Osbourn/GG2, Venom/Symbiote, etc. serve the story in a constructive way, then I'm all for it. Still, I'm with Cass in that it seems an awful lot to try to shove into a 100 minute movie.

Mat, I agree that comic books and comic book movies are legitimate storytelling mediums. All you have to do is compare how Superman was handled in the forties to how he's handled in Singer's new movie. (Or to stay on topic, look how Spider-Man was handled in the 60s cartoon compared with Raimi's films.)
The comics themselves are often ahead of the curve, but the movies are catching up.

And remember that above all, Hollywood just wants to make money and PROTECT THE BRAND!

Offline Matt

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Re: The Rise & Fall of the Spider-Man Franchise
« Reply #51 on: June 28, 2006, 05:10:31 PM »
Oh, I know, RC. Remember? Mr. Corporations-are-bad-for-the-market over here.

Offline RottingCorpse

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Re: The Rise & Fall of the Spider-Man Franchise
« Reply #52 on: November 10, 2006, 03:18:25 PM »
Here's the new Spider-Man 3 trailer which lays out the story pretty well.

http://www.ifilm.com/presents/spiderman3

It's got my nine bucks.

Offline Nubbins

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Re: The Rise & Fall of the Spider-Man Franchise
« Reply #53 on: November 10, 2006, 03:21:53 PM »
Here's the new Spider-Man 3 trailer which lays out the story pretty well.

http://www.ifilm.com/presents/spiderman3

It's got my nine bucks.

Yeah, I don't really understand why everyone seems to think these movies sucked so bad because I've really enjoyed both of them.  v :-\ v
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Offline Matt

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Re: The Rise & Fall of the Spider-Man Franchise
« Reply #54 on: November 11, 2006, 01:18:57 PM »
So what do you guys think...we've got Sandman... no Venom seen...and the Green Goblin 2. Does this mean that he'll defeat the Sandman then go against the Green Goblin? Thoughts.

Offline RottingCorpse

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Re: The Rise & Fall of the Spider-Man Franchise
« Reply #55 on: November 11, 2006, 06:10:45 PM »
I'm not that interested in getting into one of those "Ooo, do you think  . . ." debates.

However, my best guess is that Sandman is the main villain. GG2 is mnor and in the middle, when Spider-Man is "Dark Spidey." Then, You'll have Venom at the end after Spider-Man has gotten rid of the symbiote and is back to normal.

Offline Matt

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Re: The Rise & Fall of the Spider-Man Franchise
« Reply #56 on: November 11, 2006, 06:21:48 PM »
You think they'd go for all three fighting in one movie, with this massive Venom/Spiderman third act battle?

Offline RottingCorpse

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Re: The Rise & Fall of the Spider-Man Franchise
« Reply #57 on: November 11, 2006, 06:26:03 PM »
Yep.

It makes sense. Spidey finds out Sandman is "responsible" for Uncle Ben's death. He finds the black suit, goes all evil, and tries to find Sandman. In the midst of all this, GG2 comes out for revenge, "Dark Spidey" fucks him all up. (Note that Harry Osbourn is in a neck brace in the trailer.) MJ is all "What have you become?" More Sand man fighting. Spidey realizes the black suit is making him evil. He ditches it. Brock finds it and Venom comes in at the end to terrorize him.

Offline Matt

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Re: The Rise & Fall of the Spider-Man Franchise
« Reply #58 on: November 11, 2006, 06:40:46 PM »
See, I would imagine stretching it out longer than that and have a huge Venom vs. Spider-man movie.

I'm expecting something bad to happen at some point so Tobey Maguire can finally quit the franchise, the fool that he is.

Offline RottingCorpse

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Re: The Rise & Fall of the Spider-Man Franchise
« Reply #59 on: November 11, 2006, 06:44:42 PM »
I like Venom, but I think a whole movie with him would be too much.